Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam, welcome to another episode of Balancing Acts, your guide to grow profit and scale your business. This is a show where we uncover leaders, creators, change makers and entrepreneurs kind of navigate the fine line between building a successful business and making sure that their personal well being is also in alignment and that we're not sacrificing one for the other.
And today's guest is Claire Marshall.
She is the founder of Deprogram. It is a coaching company for high achievers who appear successful on the outside, but feels stuck, stressed, unsatisfied on the inside.
She is a former CEO who scaled a global marketing firm by five times. And I met Claire when she was with that company. Claire, you've lived insane over 75 countries, right? Taught meditation, built a global business. But today we're talking about a turning point when you walked away from a thriving company and from a dream lifestyle with, with international clients and, and so much that those of us on the outside looking at it, think how successful she is. So, you know, we talked about why you felt so disconnected. What was the moment you knew it was time to leave Lean Marketing.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: I had actually been offered another position at a company of a company that I'd worked with before.
And at the time, I'd been moving around the world and I moved back to Santa Barbara, California.
And even though I was earning the most that I had ever earned in my life as the CEO of this marketing consulting company, I still, still felt like I needed more.
And I was already burned out. I was already, you know, working 50 to 60 hour weeks as this as the CEO, but I still felt like I needed more money to live in Santa Barbara. I was really caught up with the idea of purchasing a home there.
And so when I got this other offer, I let my mind kind of override my body and thought, I'm going to, you know, quit this role of this company that I'd built over the previous eight years and move into this other role based on finances.
So that was originally how I decided to leave the marketing consulting company.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: So leaving for what you saw as a better paying job and better opportunities or more opportunities.
So on paper, many of us would look at that and say, you were living the dream.
You had autonomy with Lean Marketing. You had great, great pay.
And this new opportunity also looked like a dream. So why didn't it feel right on the inside?
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So first I think about kind of the way that I was treating myself. I think a lot of us as entrepreneurs and high achievers are always kind of on the treadmill, kind of trying to Go to the next, the next rung to climb the next mountain.
And I think I had a few light bulb moments, just about the fact that in the previous 10 years or so when I was moving around the world and building this marketing consulting company, that there had been various kind of goals that I'd set, financial goals. And I was also really focused on freedom, on financial freedom, geographic freedom.
And I kept kind of attaining these goals, but realized that there was a lot of self abandonment in my work in terms of how much I was working and how little I was taking care of myself physically. For example, I would be on like eight or more zoom calls a day, just back to back with clients, on sales calls, with partners, with the team.
Excuse me.
And at the end of every day, I would need ibuprofen, I would want a glass of red wine, and I would keep myself going with coffee. And it was just kind of a, an environment where I didn't physically feel good in my body most of the time because of the way that I was working.
And so I also didn't feel as aligned with the work as I would want. I think, um, marketing is something that almost, you know, all companies need, but it wasn't something that really fueled me intrinsically.
So between not taking care of myself and overworking and not feeling intrinsically connected to the work, I, over eight years really started to feel the sense of burnout. And when I got this new job offer that was going to be a lot more money but also more work, initially I accepted it, but I, within a few weeks of really thinking about it, decided that I wasn't going to accept the second offer.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Well, and, you know, I can feel your passion as you talk about the burnout you felt. And I know many in our audience who run businesses or executives at, you know, larger companies, even small companies, that burnout is, is a real thing.
And we often run, run, run, run, run. We're either on our remote. Work hasn't changed that because you almost never go home from work. Right.
Tell us a little bit about the fears or resistance you felt about walking away from that company you built from the ground up. It's really hard to walk away from something you built. Right.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: 100%. I mean, I think my identity was completely wrapped in that company. I had started as the first employee and when I left there were 15 employees.
I had worn every hat in the company and I felt really proud of kind of having to constantly change what my role was. Originally it was copywriter, and then it was team lead. And then we were hiring and then I was a marketing coach and then got into accounting and partnerships and sales and sales management. So it was like a. Constantly. I was having to upskill all the time and.
And I felt proud of what we had done. But I also, looking back, can see that my. It was kind of like my full self worth, my full identity was wrapped in that role and, and my self worth felt connected to how successful the company was.
And so when I thought about quitting, I had all kinds of fear around just feeling like I was going to be this woman floating in the abyss without a purpose and without people that needed me. I think that it really scared me to think of waking up in the morning and not having access to my email or to my slack and not being needed, like not being needed to answer questions.
So it was a big fear around my identity and just setting off into the abyss without a role. Like I didn't have anything lined up when.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to even talk about that a little bit more before we ask for some tips for our listeners.
You know, when I teach workshops for business owners, oftentimes I start with how many hats they're wearing. And it is a very typical entrepreneurial journey to, you know, start from scratch. You're good at certain skills, skills, but then you don't really have enough help as you're building and growing. So you're wearing 14 hats.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: There's actually a software called 17 hats which is, you know, so it's super common.
Was there a reason that you, you did feel the need to keep upscaling?
Could something have been done differently so that you didn't burn out in that, in that role?
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I was thinking about that ahead of this, this conversation.
Alan Dibb, who owns Lean Marketing, definitely had goals that he was setting, but it was really me. And I think that this comes back to tying my self worth to the success of the company that pushed myself so hard. Even my friends would comment, you know, I don't think that Alan is requiring this of you, but we were trying to double revenue in a services business every year, which in hindsight I think is.
Well, yeah, it's really challenging.
So I put a lot of pressure on myself. And yeah, so, you know, that's kind.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Of the balancing act is you want to grow, you want to grow, but growth eats cash. It burns us out. You know, there's. So we have to be intentional about the growth we want. And we can't forget self care for ourselves as leaders or for our employees. Who can easily burn out as well.
What about some advice for some high achievers who like you are working to that extent? Maybe they feel trapped in their current role, whether that's owning a business or working for someone else and the role no longer fits. What would be your advice?
[00:10:05] Speaker B: And I want to go back, I'll answer your question and just back to the former question.
I think that the core of this issue comes down to how my relationship with myself, like how much I value myself intrinsically. And that's a big theme and something that I've thought about all my life but didn't ever really have time to address.
But a person who has a better relationship with themselves, values themselves, takes more action for self care like would understand that trying to double revenue in a services business every year is too much.
The cost of doing that is too much. So it really took me slowing down. I mean, in my case it took me quitting jobs and taking some real time off to understand and really address my relationship with myself. So that was to answer the other question. But regarding what people can do for me there, there are lots of healing modalities out there and you'll see all kinds of self care tips online.
But for me, the, the most useful thing that I've done is starting a particular kind of meditation practice. So it's called effortless meditation. That's practiced 20 minutes in the morning and 20 minutes in the afternoon. And, and yeah, I'm happy to get into how that has affected my relationship with myself, which then allows me to make decisions that honor myself versus abandon myself.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: Thank you. And we are going to talk some more later in the show about effortless meditation. I do want to close out with thinking about, you know, we were thinking about what if the role doesn't fit.
And in part, as you said, you went to meditation to help you there.
But sometimes you might have to change the role or, you know, reinvent the role. It doesn't always mean leaving a job. It doesn't always mean leaving the company that you're building. But you know, the balance is recognizing it that you can't do both.
If you're trying to double your revenue, do you have the capacity, not just yourself to do that? And that also is a balance.
How can people find you online?
[00:12:27] Speaker B: The best is Deprogram Co, which is my website. And we also post a lot of information about our programs and what we're doing on our Instagram, which is at Deprogram Co.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Wonderful. Stay with us. When we come back, Claire and I are going to Talk about rewiring the beliefs that keep us stuck on a treadmill.
Foreign love what you're watching, you can catch Balancing Acts and all the other Now Media shows live and on demand anytime. At NowMedia TV.
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And all the content is bilingual in English and Spanish. And it's from business and news to life and culture and everything in between. So search NOW Media TV on your Roku or your favorite podcast and never miss a moment.
I'm here with Claire Marshall. I'm your host, Linda Hamilton. And Claire's been sharing her journey from leading a global marketing company to walking away and starting her own business, guiding high achievers through deep personal transformation.
She's kind of here to help us uncover the success trap, as she puts it, and how shifting what we believe about achievement can transform our businesses and our lives. And that is what Balancing Acts is about.
Being able to build a resilient business and still have a wonderful personal life as well.
Claire, your company, Deprogram Co. What do you mean by deprogramming success, and how does it challenge the traditional definition of achievement?
[00:14:37] Speaker B: Sure. So emotional deprogramming, the definition of it is deleting the limiting contents of the subconscious mind. So all of us have limiting contents in our subconscious mind. So these are not things that we're aware of, but they are belief systems that we have about what we need to do to feel worth.
Belief systems that we have? Yeah, about ourselves as we relate to other people, um, and about other groups of people, about the world.
And so when we talk about emotional deprogramming, it's removing layers of beliefs that all of us have in our subconscious in order for us to live a more free life and a life that's more driven intrinsically versus extrinsically.
And most of us were programmed when we were younger, especially in the United States, to. To believe that success is about a bigger job, a bigger house, more revenue, a bigger title. And in my case, I was following that path to the point of burnout. And I found that with each mountain that I climbed and got to the top of, I still felt often anxious and, like I said before, exhausted. And so deprogramming success doesn't mean that you're not driven to be successful. I would say in my case, it's been the opposite. I. I feel more driven than I did in the past. But it's removing the.
It means understanding kind of the patterns that you have and removing your subconscious desire to chase external wins. At the expense of, of your health, your relationships, and primarily your relationship with yourself, which is the most important relationship.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: And that's really interesting. I love the way you phrase it and I want to unpack it a little bit more because you're talking about patterns.
We all have patterns that keep us stuck and doesn't matter how successful we are.
Those patterns, chasing revenue, maybe that's not profitable. Or you know, chasing, chasing sales, or how we spend our money because there's always somebody competing for our time and our money.
How do you help them in your, in your work spot? Their own patterns of what's keeping them stuck.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: So in the programs at Deprogram Co we have different frameworks that help people go through different steps to understand based on past life experience, on experiences in their childhood and what patterns they currently see going on. Kind of what the connection is between things you would have learned in childhood and how you're reacting to things in as an adult. So we help draw the connection there through, through a series of frameworks that we go through with people.
And then the, the next big step is healing from those things so that you can break the patterns and react differently. But some examples of that are people that just say yes to everything because they, you know, they're people pleasers. They feel like it's like something that they don't want to continue doing, but they notice that they automatically will say yes to things when they know that they don't want to. Or avoiding conflict until it becomes a fire and blowing up. Or like I said earlier, people whose entire self worth is wrapped up in their work. So really having an attachment to success in a way that's detrimental or procrastination, like why can't you get something done? Even so it's, it's basically helping people understand more about those patterns that are things they can't stop but which lead to negative outcomes. Unpacking all of that and then healing from that.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Well, there was a lot in that I know that I could relate to actually. You know, the, the people pleaser, the saying yes to things. Especially when you're, you know, when you're an entrepreneur and you're growing a business, you know, you're networking, you're trying to create new relationships. And so you often say yes to things that you don't actually have time for. And that means, you know, you're working late at night afterwards to make up for what you didn't do. There was also the, you know, struggling with how much you want to grow your business and, but not everybody wants to change. Right. So sometimes I think facing these patterns, that can raise some resistance. Right.
Do you find that and how do you help people work through, through that?
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, I felt so much resistance because, I mean, what we're doing is kind of questioning your identity and ego and how you think of yourself and where you have, I mean, we're, we want to guard the things that make us feel like ourselves or where we get our self worth. Like it's like a life and death matter. So, yeah, when we start to break these things down, everybody feels resistance. But I think that there is also kind of a knowing for a lot of people. And there was for me that I did really, you know, that these things were leading to detrimental outcomes that weren't sustainable. Like I couldn't sustain being on nine zoom calls a day. I think in terms of my relationship with myself, I'm like not treating myself well. That's not how I want to live my life.
And so, yes, people feel resistance and yeah, I'll give it back to you.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: And you know, so at some point you might have to, you know, you want to change a pattern, you don't want to lose momentum. You certainly don't want to lose revenue. Not everyone can lose revenue. Right. Or stop a job. So they might have to take some small steps if they see their own pattern and they might need help to do that. Right? To change a pattern of behavior. We all have it. Okay? I doubt there's any listener that doesn't have something they do that. It's when it crosses the line into burnout. And maybe it's affecting your. It could be affecting how your business is run. It could be affecting your relationship with your employees or your spouse or your children. So it's important to acknowledge to yourself the things that are harmful.
So how can they break maybe one at a time without losing momentum and revenue?
[00:21:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And I would, I would say that understanding what that is like, maybe there's like a tiny inner voice that exists in you that sometimes you can hear, but usually you're distracting yourself over it. That's like, this is not good for me.
You know, staying up this late, drinking this much coffee, drinking this much wine, you know, feeling this stressed, procrastinating like this, this is not good for me. So that's one kind of thing that, that might get you thinking that maybe there are some patterns that are going on.
And with. So in my work, we're first helping people kind of objectify the patterns and see what's going on. And kind of, you know, put it out in front of us so we can break it all down. And then the actual undoing of the patterns, the healing is a longer term incremental process. So in my experience, when I've tried to address stress or issues with sleep or things like that in a quick way, like in my experience, you can't fix something like this with a pill or you can't fix it with one workshop or, or something that comes in a quick dose in order to heal the patterns over time. It starts with understanding what they are. And then the first thing is learning effortless meditation. And then there are other healing practices beyond this that are somatic practices.
But meditation is something that is effortless. Meditation specifically is something that's very gentle, that helps people over time first allow their nervous system to de excite so that you're not living in fight or flight and making really reactive decisions or, you know, reactions to your partner or child or team member.
And meditation over time allows you to have some space from, from emotions that arise and allows you to feel more of a sense of well being so that you're, you're facing life differently. So I would say meditation, which is part of the healing process, once you understand what the patterns are, is something that takes place gently, incrementally and over time, but which yields amazing results.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: That's wonderful.
And I am looking forward to talking to in more detail about effortless meditation as we close out this segment and leading into the next segment on Breaking the Burnout Loop. What are one or two things that could redefine success and lead to better business decisions?
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Well, when you're defining success from the inside out versus what society told you that success is, society told you that it's owning a business, that it's having a bigger and a bigger house.
When you're able to connect with yourself and understand what you define as success, that's step one.
And from there, when you're, when you're approaching your life and your business and everything from the inside out, the space that opens up, the motivation that you have, the space for creativity to focus, for productivity, you stop kind of chasing the wrong opportunities or every opportunity and are able to live a life that feels more aligned, that is a perfect.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Way to close this segment. Thank you for your insights. And redefining success isn't about slowing down, right? It's about building the right kind of momentum. And I know we can find our audience can find Claire on deprogram co. Stay with us, we'll write back. Be right Back and talk about breaking the burnout loop.
Love what you're watching. You can catch Balancing Acts and all the other NOW Media shows live and on demand anytime. At NOW Media, you can download the free app, the NOW Media app on Roku or Apple.
And all the content is bilingual in English and Spanish. And it's from business and news to life and culture and everything in between. So search NOW Media TV on your Roku or your favorite podcast and never miss a moment.
Welcome back to Balancing Acts. I'm your host, Linda Hamilton, and we're with Claire Marshall. And this time, we're diving into a challenge so many business owners and leaders have but really face head on, and that is burnout. Claire calls it the burnout loop.
And it's a cycle that can be really hard to break for anyone that's either in a leadership position or running a business, and I would say for our employees as well. So, Claire, let's talk about.
I just want to go back for a moment because I think it leads to burnout is what we were talking about in the last segment about success and being able to define success for yourself. Um, and could we. Let's pull that back one moment as to how what you believe is true about success.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: I think that in my case, I had. I realized after doing a lot of the work that. That I now facilitate, that my definition of success had come from other people, from my mom's definition of success, from my dad's definition of success, from. From society's definition of success. And so I will say that this is an evolving thing. It's like, I could explain how I think about success today in this moment, but certainly over the last few years, since I stopped working with the marketing consulting company and have done a lot of inner work, I'm able to parse out what parts of my psyche think of success in terms of what was like, kind of put on me, and then how I'm defining success for myself.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: Right? And I think that's important for each one of us. We. We have to define success for ourselves.
We can't have others impose their view on it, especially when you're. When you're running a business. And then we're also competitive, right? So, you know, there's always that talk about so and so, you know, double their revenue and so and so reached a million dollars. And.
But we never know the story behind their success or the things that they're feeling. So we have to focus on ourselves and what we want for both our business and our life. And that, again, is how I think of balancing acts. Business and life are important because you can't leave one out of the journey. So what patterns do you see in high achieving business owners who they are burning out and they get stuck there?
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Well, I think a lot of the patterns that I experienced myself so, you know, using drinking coffee all day to keep themselves stimulated, staying up late past night, like not taking care of themselves, so not exercising, you know, realizing that they wake up and go straight to their computer and just not honoring themselves physically, emotionally, mentally, maybe realizing that they're prioritizing work above everything else.
Maybe at work they're being very reactive versus responsive with their teams. Like realizing afterwards, like, oh, I, I wish I didn't react that way.
So those are some examples of like being, you know, edging towards burnout.
And I think people get stuck in these patterns.
I mean, partly, I think as humans, when we feel uncomfortable, we want to distract ourselves in some way, like kind of deflect. And a lot of humans use work as a distraction. So if they're feeling any sort of feelings of discomfort, it's more work.
So throwing everything into work or it's drinking wine or you know, other kind of harmful habits to us that help us kind of separate ourselves from uncomfortable feelings.
But I think that that's how they get stuck.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: No, it's funny that I think of that. I know I'm guilty of that all the time. If I'm stressed or whatever, I can just go to work.
My work is all encompassing. I, you know, I do tax work, I do financial work. So, you know, I can just get my mind into it and I won't think of another thing while I'm working so that it doesn't make the problem go away. Right. It just, it just kind of buries it for a while.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: So you, you also talked about having constant zoom meetings, like all day long. Right. And so in that case, the problem's not really your calendar, which is the same thing work. You know, you're putting things on your calendar or maybe you have outside work.
That's something you kind of have to control yourself. Right. If you're feeling burned out. So what are some tactics you can do if you're going to, you have a job or you have a business and you feel maybe you are getting burned out before it's too late?
[00:31:38] Speaker B: Well, I think in my case, and that would have been taking place for years before I, before I left.
I think if I had felt differently about myself, I would have stood up for myself and said, you know, we need to hire more people. I can't take this on.
And we would have really. I mean, I think I was trying to do this at the time, but my mindset at the time was like, I can do this, I can do anything. And like, I'm willing to work 60 hour weeks now that things have shifted for me. Like, I'm not willing to work more than 40 hours a week, if that.
And so there's been kind of a redefining of the cost of things and where I'm prioritizing things. And so my mental and physical health is at the top of the list now. And so it's just not worth it. It wouldn't be worth it for me to do that. But at the time I would have spoken up more and asked for there to be more delegation and have said no, a lot more.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: And I think that's really important now.
You were reporting to someone else. But if you're the business owner, the same thing was true. You kind of have to tell yourself no if you see those signs.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: You have to look at your employees and how much work are you giving them?
Are your employees afraid to come to you about having too much work on their plate? And I think it's part of being aware of everything that's going on around you. Because ultimately burnout can disrupt a business completely, whether it's the owner or their employees.
[00:33:22] Speaker B: One thing to that that I think is important is that I'm looking back and now that I am a business owner, you know, there's a part of me that's very type A that wants to get things up and running and scale, which is what I've kind of always done in my, my work life. But now it's like, why would we, you know, why do we need to double revenue every year? Like, who's pushing that? I mean, I think during that time when, when we were thinking that we were looking at other companies and comparing ourselves and it was purely out of, I think, some sort of competitive idea. But we, I mean, you know, you are going to burn everybody out if you, if you're like trying to keep up with all the other companies that are doing something similar. And I think that now that I'm running my own company, while those desires and intentions creep up, I'm also more likely at this stage to say, like, the company doesn't have to grow at, you know, doubling every year. Like, it can grow at a pace that aligns more with how I want to treat myself and the life that I want to live.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: And I call that managing growth. Right, because chasing growth eats cash and can really many businesses basically grow broke. So I don't want to discourage business owners from wanting the growth. But you want to be intentional about it. Look at, you know, look at the financing, look at your capacity, who's going to do the work so that it is practical. Because sometimes it's not sustainable if you are wearing every hat yourself, or you don't have enough people or you don't have the money to hire those. So you really want to think about that before you do it.
How do you help clients maybe identify or break their burnout loop?
[00:35:10] Speaker B: So first, we are helping people learn effortless meditation, which gives them a little bit more space and allows their nervous system to de excite so that they have more awareness about themselves. Like when you're, when you're in stress mode and fight or flight all the time, it's hard to have any perspective on what's going on. So allowing yourself to have your mind and body relax and see things more clearly is step one. And then step two is having the help of a professional walk you through some of the patterns that you're experiencing. A lot of people are aware of these things. We don't need to.
People can tell us, you know, what sort of things that they do that lead to negative outcomes that they can't stop doing that are patterns.
But we are working with people one on one and in groups to help them understand what, which subconscious beliefs they have about themselves that are sitting beneath those patterns, that are driving those patterns. So that's usually a huge aha moment is what do I think about myself that keeps these patterns going despite all the things I've tried to stop them? I mean, a lot of people have been through lots of therapy and tried lots of things to stop patterns, right?
[00:36:36] Speaker A: And so, you know, in closing this out, what are some early signs people should look for to know if they are heading towards burnout and what's the very first step they would take to shift out of it.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: So I think that, I think I said this earlier, but it's like if there's a voice in your head that's like, this is not good for me, or physically, or if you realize that there are things you want to change in terms of how you're relating to your work, how you relate to your employees, your child, your partner, that's cyclical. But you realize you. You can't stop doing it. It's like you're sensitive to this topic and you react in a disproportionate way to things. Those are patterns as well.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: So.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: Like I said, also just realizing that, I mean, yeah, with regards to burnout, that you're not taking care of yourself so you're not sleeping well, like maybe you've gained weight, maybe you know, that you don't eat well, things like that.
And I would say that the, the first step would be just acknowledging that the way you're living is not good for you.
And there are many different methods for healing out there. And I would say that the next step would be just starting to get some space, some mental clarity. So there are lots of meditation apps. Thank you.
Yeah.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: And tell us how people can find.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: You online just at Deprogram Co. There you could set up a call. And I'm happy to chat about how my programs work for this.
[00:38:21] Speaker A: And do you have resources also available?
[00:38:24] Speaker B: There are free resources on my website. Free guided meditations and. Yeah, and the first and happy to chat.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: Wonderful. So burnout is not about time management. Right. It's about our pattern management, how we act. And when you spot the loop, you can break it.
And then. So in our final segment, we're going to look at the simple practice that shifted everything for Claire. So stay with us and we'll be right back.
Love what you're watching. You can catch Balancing Acts and all the other NOW Media shows live and on demand anytime. At NOW Media tv, you can download the free app, the NOW Media app on Roku or Apple.
And all the content is bilingual in English and Spanish. And it's from business and news to life and culture and everything in between. So search NOW Media TV on your Roku or your favorite podcast and never miss a moment.
So we are talking with Claire about so many things, about, about Burnout, about leaving a high paying job to start her own business. And now we're going to talk about effortless meditation, which is the practice that finally worked for her after 20 years of trying and hating meditation.
Welcome back. Claire, you said you tried meditating for 20 years and hated it. I would say I kind of agree.
It's not something I've ever quite figured out how to do. So I'm really excited about our conversation. So tell us about effortless meditation and why it worked for you after 20 years.
[00:40:32] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
So I think when I was in my 20s, I had heard that meditating was something that the top CEOs around the world do. And I wanted to be very successful. My, my primary objective was becoming rich, you know, being financially successful. And over the course of 20 years I tried different forms and they really made me feel like I was failing. I felt like I'm too type A, my brain is too busy. And it also felt non productive and I was really focused on being productive. So I think too I had tried a number of meditation retreats and I would be able to meditate on the retreats and feel really good there. But then I would get home and only be able to practice for a couple of days.
I think that the difference with effortless meditation, which is something I started over two years ago, is that it allows for all thoughts. And it's not something where you have to focus your mind and try to concentrate, which I have found really challenging with other forms of meditation. So I'm not forcing my mind to do anything or to be quiet.
So that's really important.
And it also feels good. So like with any habit, if you've read Atomic Habits, they talk about how, you know, for something to be positively reinforced and adding it as a daily habit.
It really helps if it feels good. So I feel good after I meditate with effortless meditation and, and it's a lot easier to do than a lot of the forms that I've tried in the past.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Let's talk about it a little more, especially for those who haven't meditated before who struggled with that. As I said, I struggled with it in part because there was no way I could keep my mind quiet. You know, I couldn't get two seconds without my mind like darting on, oh, I have to take care of that and I have to take care of this. And you know, and that's due. And so it just never worked. So how is it you don't have to keep your mind quiet? What's an example?
[00:42:42] Speaker B: Well, with this form of meditation we acknowledge the way our minds work. I mean you can't control your mind. You can't sit down and think. Like I don't, I don't want to have any thoughts. The thoughts come whether you want it or not. I mean that's the human condition.
And so with this form of meditation, you know, different days, so some days I'll wake up and have tons going on. And I do sit down and have a very thought filled meditation, but it is kind of surrendering and allowing that to happen.
Part of this form of meditation is allowing your thoughts to roam and coming back to an anchor point when you realize that your thoughts have roamed. And you know, each meditation session is completely different. So there are some times when I sit down and I realized that I can get to kind of a transcendent state where I don't have many thoughts and that might stay for the whole 20 minutes. And then there's other times when I'm meditating where my thoughts will be all over the place and I'll rarely remember to come back to the anchor point. But, but would you tell us what.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: An anchor point is? What, what is an so what? Like what is an anchor point?
[00:43:49] Speaker B: Sure, sure. So this type of meditation, which comes from the Vedic tradition, from India, from Thai thousands of years ago, this is not something I made up or the person that taught me made up. This is, this is over 2000 years ago. This particular mental technique has been helping people.
But in effortless forms of meditation, which includes transcendental meditation, if people have heard of that, Deepak Chopra's meditations, Art of living meditations, and a lot of these, your, the effortless component means that you're allowing your thoughts to roam and effortless, effortlessly coming back to an anchor, which can be awareness on your breath, it could be coming back to a mantra, it could be coming back to a sound. But within this umbrella from the Vedic tradition, rather than really focusing on something like you might do with Zen meditation or within Passa, you're allowing thoughts to roam and effortlessly coming back to, to something, whether it's breath, mantra sound, and.
[00:45:02] Speaker A: And so what does the science say about why that, why that works and how does it work for an average business owner?
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Sure. So there's so much science, we could, we could do many balancing acts on the, on the research that's behind effortless forms of meditation, but primarily as it, as it would relate to business owners. First you see major differences in your cortisol levels, for example. So this simple mental technique allows you to your mind and body to relax to a state that's deeper than deep sleep. So you're really letting things slow down. I mean, imagine you're like in the spider flight all day, but there's twice a day that you're allowing things to relax.
That process allows for you sleep better, you feel less stressed, you're more creative, more productive. There's a book called World Class Brain that talks about specifically how effortless forms of meditation affect leaders and allows them to perform better at work. Like it's tied to ethical decision making.
I'm just trying to think, yeah, there's so many benefits, but overall it helps you build a better relationship with yourself. And I know that sounds really far fetched, but, but once you're able to relax, you can deal with Most things in a much better way. I'll just keep it there.
[00:46:41] Speaker A: You say it personally changed your decision making and creativity and how did you do that?
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Well, yeah, like we've said, I mean, a good example is with regards to how much I work. So even though I've been wired my whole life to make more money, to work, to work hard, work harder, I'm able to now, like draw the line. I have a much clearer path with my body. And I listen to my body when it says take a nap, don't drink more coffee.
You know, I mean, recently I pushed back a course because I didn't have time to. It was going to put me working in overload mode. And those are decisions I wouldn't have made before. I also think that with meditation and inner growth work allowing me to see other people more clearly, that the way that I deal with my employees now is from a much more compassionate perspective versus just kind of treating people as utility, which I may have done more of in the past.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: Interesting. And you know, we're talking about, you know, employees and our work.
What about family? I mean, a lot of entrepreneurs, they're married, they have children, or they have parents they're taking care of. How can it help them stay grounded with.
With all. There were so many responsibilities we all have today.
[00:48:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So a lot of people that have been through my courses are parents.
I'm not a parent, but I know that. I'm just thinking of some of the quotes from parents, like parents that have taken anti anxiety medication that no longer need anti anxiety medication.
Parents that, especially with little children or any child of any age, just, you know, family relationships are how, how do we say, like family's the final front. These are really charged relationships. And having a meditation practice really allows you to respond to family members rather than being triggered and reacting, which is huge, just to have some space from the emotional feeling you feel and how you're actually reacting. And that, that little nuanced thing and that little amount of space does allow relationships to shift.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: Wow.
And to not be triggered so you're not taking out and blowing.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Less triggered, less triggered.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: Or maybe the ultimate goal could be to not be.
To not be triggered and overreacting or emotionally. Right. When you're so stressed out and burned out. So how can people follow your work and continue the conversation about effortless meditation?
[00:49:27] Speaker B: Sure. So I have workshops that are coming up, I have an email list and I have a podcast of my own that's coming out soon. So all of that you can find a link on my Instagram site and on my website. So Deprogram co on Instagram and on the web.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: Thank you so much for sharing your story and your wisdom with us today. We learned how to break three from the success trap and from a burnout loop that it isn't just possible, it's also essential for our long term fulfillment, for our happiness, and for having a balanced life.
And so I think it's great. I am also going to take some time to reflect and realign.
Just as balancing acts is about balancing our business and keeping our sanity. And it sounds like meditation would be a wonderful way to do that. And we hope you'll come back again next week for another episode where we help you find success without losing balance. Until next time, stay grounded, stay inspired, and keep living your best life. See you next week.
